He is the prime minister of a country from which hundreds of thousands have fled to Germany in recent years: Iraq's Prime Minister Mohammed Shia' Al Sudani (52) is expected in Berlin this week.
His meeting with Chancellor Olaf Scholz (64, SPD) will not only focus on energy issues – Iraq offers itself as a gas supplier – but also on a sensitive topic: deportations.
? BILD reporters met Al Sudani for his first interview after taking office in Baghdad - and talked to him about all the sensitive issues!
Gas partnership
BILD: Mr. Prime Minister, you will travel to Berlin this week for a meeting with Chancellor Olaf Scholz. Do you see any chance that Iraq could be a gas partner for Germany in the future?
Al Sudani: Yes, because of Iraq’s capacities and its continuous plans to increase oil production and gas investments, it is possible to meet Germany’s energy needs under the conditions the global market is suffering from – a high demand that has led to higher prices. Iraq is capable of meeting the needs of Germany and the global market.
BILD reporter Paul Ronzheimer welcomes Iraq's Prime Minister Mohammed Shia' Al Sudani in Baghdad
New Year's Eve violence by migrants
In Germany, there were serious riots on New Year’s Eve. The participants were in many cases men from Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq. What is your view on Germany these days?
Al Sudani: Today, Irak respects democratic principles and the right to peaceful demonstration by the citizens in any country, be it Iran or Germany, and we always advise the governments to listen to the legitimate demands of the people. At the same time, in exercising their right to peaceful demonstrations, citizens must protect public and private property and respect the law.
These are the principles that Iraq believes in and that we defend with respect to any event that occurs in any country of the region or the world.
Do you think that Germany has a migration problem?
Al Sudani: The rate of immigration rises in various countries in general, and in particular regarding Iraqis in Germany, where the Iraqi community represents the second-largest Arab community. Citizens have the right to voluntarily return. We, in turn, are a government committed to providing easy conditions for such a return. We all hope that our friends in Germany will understand the situation of every citizen. We are hopeful that our friends in Germany will understand the conditions of every citizen in accordance with international laws and standards regarding the rights of refugees.
Traumatized refugees
But this aggression by some refugees against the country or the police or fire brigade – where does it come from?
Al Sudani: Of course, any attack is unacceptable anywhere in the world, and we condemn this attack on safe citizens of any nationality. We always push for everyone to respect the rule of law in any country and respect the existing laws.
Yes, to a degree, it may have been due to the nature of the circumstances of these citizens in this or that country, the severity of the violence they were exposed to, or seeing the terrorism and tensions that occurred in those countries. But this does not excuse them from abiding by the law and respecting the rights of other citizens and the laws of the country in which they are staying.
Which role does religion play?
Al Sudani: The Islamic religion is the religion of love, tolerance and respect for each other. The principles of the Islamic religion are sublime principles that always call for peace and coexistence. Islamic societies were established based on these true principles.
Hence there are those who adhere to these principles and those who violate these principles, and this is a natural problem that exists in all religions in all societies, depending on education and the principles and values that each individual has internalized.
Iraq's Prime Minister Mohammed Shia' Al Sudani during his very first interview after taking office
If Germany were to send Iraqis back to their home country, would you be willing to accept this? Would you be willing to enter an agreement?
Al Sudani: As I said, Iraq is keen to provide appropriate conditions for the return of any Iraqi citizen from Germany or other countries. This is one of the issues that will be addressed during our visit to Berlin and discussed according to the mechanisms that guarantee the rights of citizens in terms of their interests, security and stability.
You were Minister for Human Rights and are now Prime Minister. Would you say there is any significant political persecution in Iraq? Or, to put it differently, is Iraq a safe country which people can return to?
Al Sudani: Thank God, there are now signs of security and stability today in Iraq. Thanks to the security forces and the support of the international community, including Germany, we were able to defeat ISIS terrorism and liberate all Iraqi territories.
Yes, there are ISIS cells and they are dealt with by the security forces on an ongoing basis, but we can say that security and stability have been achieved in Iraq and the country always strives for more stability by enforcing the law and providing decent living conditions and social justice for all citizens without discrimination or exception.
Forced deportations
However, you say that the situation is much better now, but last year – up until November – only 72 Iraqis returned to your country and came back here. So what is the problem that makes people come back?
Al Sudani: The reasons may not be related to security and stability. There are special circumstances for every citizen, and – as I said – the government cannot force people to change their beliefs, and neither can countries. The country cannot practice a forced return.
For a citizen to leave a country, there are standards of international agreements that must be applied in the correct contexts that guarantee the interests of all parties
What makes Germany so attractive for refugees in general?
Al Sudani: This depends on the circumstances that drive citizens from a given country. When ISIS gained control over large areas in Iraq and Syria, there was a massive wave of displacement from the two countries towards Europe and a discrepancy between the decisions of European countries regarding the acceptance of refugees.
The safety of an area plays a role when people decide on migrating.
Social benefits in Germany
Do social benefits also play a role?
Al Sudani: Each country has its own context and laws in dealing with refugees, and the level of services or support it provides can be a very important element for the refugee compared to another country.
That surely exists. This is an existing feature of the social and economic system of a country such as Germany on the level of European countries.
In Berlin they say that there are difficulties bringing people back because many flights are rescheduled. The flights are infrequent and are cancelled shortly before departure. What is your reply to that?
Al Sudani: This topic will be discussed during the visit. There are various reasons. Iraq will submit a proposal to establish a joint committee for discussing this issue in all its aspects.
So if you were to establish a committee, could you ensure Chancellor Scholz that, in the future, Iraq will take back all citizens who have no right to remain in Germany?
Al Sudani: We are not the ones to decide this matter, this decision is up to the citizens. The committee is looking for ways to prepare all requirements for a voluntary return.
BILD reporter Paul Ronzheimer interviews Iraq's Prime Minister Mohammed Shia' Al Sudani in Baghdad
Dealing with offenders
What about Iraqis who have committed crimes in Germany? Are you willing to take back people who are currently imprisoned in Germany?
Al Sudani: These are subject to the law and the mutual agreements between the two countries.
But what’s your view on this?
Al Sudani: This is not a personal question about an opinion. Each case needs to be examined. This issue is complex and sensitive and is not subject to opinions. Rather, it requires investigation by the competent authorities, the authorities that are related to refugees.
Mullah violence in Iran
Over the past few months, the world was looking not just at Ukraine, but also Iran. How concerned are you about the situation of the people who are protesting there? Over the past few days, we again kept hearing about young men being executed because of their protests. What is your view on this?
Al Sudani: To be clear, Iraq is the country that has suffered the most from gross violations of human rights during the period of a dictatorial regime. Unfortunately, Western countries were watching that dictatorial regime and were establishing relations with it and witnessing the grave violations in Halabja, the use of chemical weapons, executions and other crimes, and therefore Iraq is a country that rejects any violation of human rights anywhere around the world.
Your father was executed under the regime of Saddam Hussein. How do you feel when you see young people being executed in Iran because they have demonstrated for their rights?
Al Sudani: The person who has been wronged the most will reject all forms of injustice. I lost five of my family members because of the dictatorial regime, and therefore I disapprove of any citizen of any country in the world being subject to that. In Iran or elsewhere.
Thus we are always keen to give our advice to neighbours and friends and to all countries of the world. First, human rights are indivisible. The Western world must look at them everywhere, not just in Iran.
Meeting with Chancellor Scholz
But I was talking about your neighbouring countries. What could impress Iran to a degree that the country would change its actions? There are primarily women on the streets, demonstrating for their rights.
Al Sudani: We advise friends and brothers to respect human rights and respect civil, political, and cultural freedoms as stipulated in the constitution and the agreements. This is the best way to achieve good governance, stability and justice in any country. The method of repression, suppression of freedoms and encroachment on the rights of citizens will not lead to stability in any country.
When you meet Chancellor Scholz. What do you ask, and hope for, most from Germany and the Chancellor for your people, for Iraq?
Al Sudani: There will be more than just one initiative and idea that will be discussed through the delegation of advisors with the German embassy in Baghdad. It will concern gas investments. It will concern strengthening German companies, especially Siemens is in the electricity sector.
This is one of the priority issues, both in our government programme and during our visit to Germany.
The meeting between Al Sudani and Chancellor Olaf Scholz will take place on Friday at 1 pm.